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温家宝总理接受《华盛顿邮报》总编唐尼采访

2006-07-07 20:22

A Complete Transcript From Chinese Premier's Meeting The Washington Post

温家宝总理接受《华盛顿邮报》总编唐尼采访

Nov. 21, 2003

  Interview with Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao on Nov. 21, 2003 by Executive Editor Leonard Downie Jr., Assistant Managing Editor for Foreign News Philip Bennett, and Washington Post correspondents John Pomfret, Philip P. Pan and Peter S. Goodman.

  新华社北京十一月二十三日电 国务院总理温家宝二十一日在中南海紫光阁接受了美国《华盛顿邮报》总编唐尼的采访。

  Premier Wen:

  I know this is your first time in China, so let me start by extending my warmest welcome to you and your colleagues. I can quote one fitting ancient Chinese poem to describe our meeting: “Good friends highly value their words. They travel a thousand li to keep their promise for a gathering.” In a few days time I will visit your great country. So first of all I wish to convey through The Washington Post my cordial greetings and best wishes to the great American people.

  I remember only a couple of days after the September 11 incident I was here receiving participants during an international financial conference in Beijing. And among the delegates to the meeting there was one lady expert from the United States. I noticed that she looked very sad and lonely, so I extended my hand to her and expressed my sympathy, and I also asked her to convey my solicitude to the American people.

  And this reminds me of the fact that China and the United States, two great nations, have had exchanges for over 200 years and across three centuries. And I remember so well so many touching stories about the profound friendship and good cooperation between the two peoples. In the 1860s, Chinese workers, by the tens of thousands, went to the U.S. to build the trans-continental railroad that links the east and west coast. The Chinese workers defied starvation and cold. Many other workers could not endure the harsh conditions. Only the Chinese workers stuck it out to the very end. Many, many Chinese workers lost their lives in the process of construction and there were too many to count. However, it was recorded in history that the last track was laid by four Chinese workers. Hence, in 1991, the state of Illinois sent a delegation to Shanghai solely for the purpose of building a monument with 3000 railway spikes and they said that the contribution of Chinese workers was essential in linking the east and west coasts and promoting national unity. I also remember very well that from May 1942 to September 1945 a group of young American pilots from the famous Flying Tiger squadron flew the Hump Route to support China during the war against fascism. The Hump Route was famous for its danger and in those years more than 500 planes crashed, claiming the lives of more than 1,500 Chinese and American pilots. That route was also known as the aluminum trail for the wreckage of crashed planes glittering in the sunlight. However, that route is a testimony to the cooperation between the Chinese and the Americans. The reason why I recall these touching stories is because I hope our interview will start in a good atmosphere of mutual respect and friendship.

  Q: One of the current issues for joint Chinese and American action is the current situation in Taiwan. What would you like the President of the United States to do to help China deal with the current situation in Taiwan?

  A: The recent remarks and activities by the leaders of the Taiwan authorities, especially their deliberate provocations on the referendum issue and writing a constitution, show clearly not only their obstinate clinging to national splittism but also their stepped up efforts at Taiwan independence.

  You put the question of Taiwan to me. Actually, I have also been asking questions: What are the Taiwan authorities driving at with all that they are doing and where are they taking Taiwan? Do they still respect the cherished aspirations of the Taiwan compatriots for peace, stability and development? Do they really want to maintain peace and stability in the Taiwan Straits or are they bent on disrupting peace and stability in the Taiwan Straits? I believe that these questions are of concern to the Chinese people and of concern to our Taiwan compatriots, and they are also of concern to the United States and the international community at large.

  Our policy toward Taiwan is a clear-cut one. It is peaceful reunification and “one country, two systems.” We will not give up our efforts for a peaceful settlement of the question of Taiwan because a peaceful settlement is in the fundamental interests of all Chinese people, our Taiwan compatriots included. But we will not sit by and do nothing faced with provocative activities aimed at splitting the motherland. China's sovereignty and territorial integrity brook no division and the position of the Chinese government on upholding the one-China principle is rock firm and defies all challenges. I hope the U.S. government will recognize the gravity and danger of the provocative remarks and actions taken by the leader of the Taiwan authorities that would undermine the prospects for peaceful reunification and that the U.S. side would not send any wrong signals to the Taiwan authorities. And we hope that the U.S. side would take practical measures that are conducive to the maintenance of peace and stability in the Taiwan Straits.

  Q: Are there specific measures that you would like the United States to take? Do you have specific measures in mind?

  The Taiwan question is the most important and sensitive issue in the China-U.S. relationship. So on the question of Taiwan, the U.S. side must be very straightforward in adhering to the principles of the three Sino-U.S. joint communiques and in opposing Taiwan independence. The U.S. side must be crystal clear in opposing the use of a referendum or writing a constitution or all other tactics used by the leader of Taiwan authorities to pursue his separatist agenda. And the U.S. side must adhere to the principle of the Aug. 17 communique and refrain from upgrading arms sales to Taiwan both in quantity and quality. This will fundamentally help maintain peace and stability in the Taiwan Straits. It will also be conducive to the advancement of the process of the peaceful reunification of China. It will also be fundamentally helpful to the maintenance of world peace and stability.

  Q: If the leadership of Taiwan continues to proceed along the road it is on, despite what you say and despite what the Americans might say, what measures is China prepared to take?

  A: That is the most crucial question. I can clearly say this, Mr. Executive Editor, Taiwan is China's sacred territory and is an inalienable part of Chinese territory. No Chinese government will abandon the position of peaceful reunification on this question. We completely understand the desire of the Taiwan compatriots for democracy, and we also understand their hopes for a peaceful environment. However, when the leadership of the Taiwan authorities wants to separate Taiwan from Chinese territory, no Chinese will agree.

  The Chinese people will pay any price to safeguard the unity of the motherland.

  I assume that you are familiar with the words of President Lincoln, who once said, “a house divided against itself will not stand.” So the U.S. federal government would never allow any of its states to secede from the United States. It is our hope that the situation would not lead to that point. Therefore, we still won抰 give up our efforts for peace.

  Q: Another issue in U.S.-Chinese relations is trade. China is a very large trading partner of the United States. Recently, the Bush administration announced its intention to restrict some exports of Chinese textiles. Do you believe it will be necessary for China to take retaliatory action?

  A: First, I want to say that the problems that crop up in our bilateral trade and economic cooperation must be handled properly. These questions must be handled properly because the expansion of trade and the development of economic cooperation between us serve the fundamental interests of the Chinese and American peoples. We all may need to recall that in 1972 when the door was open to our relationship 30 years ago, our trade was practically nil. At the time Dr. [Henry] Kissinger visited China, each visiting American to China was only allowed to carry $100 to spend in the Chinese economy. We only started to have statistics about our trade in 1979, and in that year the trade volume was less than $2.5 billion. Now, after 25 years our joint cooperation and trade has developed significantly and trade volume has already reached $100 billion —— that's a 40-fold increase. So you can see the development of such a trade relationship has served the interests of both peoples.

  I am aware of the U.S. concern over the huge trade imbalance. I would like to give you a few explanations. First, such a trade imbalance is to a great extent structural and a result of shifting commercial relations. I will give you one example. While the trade deficit that exists between China and the U.S. is going up, China's trade deficit in our trade with Asian countries is also going up at the same time. In the first 10 months of this year, China's exports grew by 32 percent, however our imports grew by 40 percent.

  Second, if you look at our export structure, actually Sino-foreign joint ventures or wholly foreign-owned enterprises contribute to 65 percent of our total exports and more than half of our exports involve the processing of imported material or parts, and the majority of profits actually go to the foreign investors. These enterprises include the U.S.-invested enterprises in China, such as Motorola and Wal-Mart.

  Third, what we sell to the U.S. market are the products that U.S. consumers need, and Chinese products are affordable but of very good quality. So our exports actually help stabilize the price in the U.S. markets and also satisfy the needs of U.S. consumers.

  Fourth, it is not China's aim to seek long-term and excessive trade surpluses. Our aim in trade policy is to have a basic balance between imports and exports. We are willing to open up our markets to buy more from the United States and other countries, especially to purchase high-tech products.

  Not so long ago, we sent a few purchasing missions to the United States and they signed contracts worth billions of U.S. dollars. That demonstrates our sincerity. At the same time, we hope that the United States would grant market economy status to China and lift restrictions on China and open up its market.

  And we also hope you will lift restrictions on exports to China. I can give you an example. A few years ago, China placed an order for a Loral satellite and we paid a deposit of more than $150 million. However, someone in the U.S. did not want to see a Chinese rocket being used to launch the Loral satellite. Hence, the contract was not implemented and the $150 million deposit has not been refunded.

  In reality, these restrictions will not hinder China's development. In the past few years, China has continuously sent satellites successfully into orbit and we also have our space program. For instance, some digital machine tools, some computers —— with respect to these projects, China already has very strong R&D capabilities and in certain areas were are actually at the forefront. Nevertheless, the United States still places these products on the list of restricted items.

  Q: Given everything you抳e told me so far, were you surprised then by the action on textiles and is there anything China needs to do in response?

  A: I抦 not just surprised, I抦 shocked and the Chinese people have been surprised and shocked. This unilateral restrictive action, occurring just at the time when the Chinese people were expressing their sincerity and involving textile products only worth $400-500 million and without any prior discussion with the Chinese government, seriously wounded the feelings of the Chinese people. I wonder if you have taken note of by the response by the international community and the reaction of experts in the field. Such a decision has hurt the US market. I want to invoke another Chinese saying: We should not be afraid of the dark clouds blocking our view because we are already at a high elevation. With respect to our joint cooperation in trade and in cooperation in other areas, it is important to adopt a strategic perspective like the view you would have when you are already on top of Mount Tai. Then all other mountains would be dwarfed.

  We still hope between the China and the U.S. we can establish a mechanism for regular discussion and coordination and cooperation to tackle the problems that might come up. This will be one of the proposals I will bring to the United States because I think such a mechanism would play a positive role in solving problems. The establishment of such a mechanism will provide guarantees for equal consultations as a way to handle our disputes. Arbitrarily imposing sanctions or restrictions will not help solve the problem. On the contrary, it will hurt the interests of both sides.

  Q: What is your thinking about the suggestion that changing the way in which the Chinese currency is valued would make a contribution to the trade relations between the two countries?

  A: We first began reforming our exchange rate regime in 1994. It was decided at that time that we would adopt a market-based, single, regulated floating exchange rate regime. Some people claim the value of the RENMINBI is fixed and has not changed. This does not square with the facts. I think it would be more accurate to say that the band of fluctuation of the RENMINBI is quite narrow. Since 1994, the RENMINBI has appreciated in real terms by 18.5 percent against the U.S. dollar and by 39.4 percent against the Euro. In 1997, during the Asian financial crisis, we withstood pressure for RENMINBI devaluation and since then, the band of fluctuation of the value of the RENMINBI has been quite narrow.

  The exchange rate of the currency a country should be set in accordance to its national conditions and the state of its economic and financial sector. There is no denying we still face very daunting tasks in financial and banking reform. We have already allowed our currency to be freely convertible under current account in 1996, and it will take a very long period of time and arduous efforts before we can achieve the objective of a freely convertible currency under the capital account. We are definitely going to accelerate reform of the financial and banking sector and while we do so we抣l explore how to form a rational mechanism in which the value of the RENMINBI will fluctuate on the basis of market conditions.

  I don抰 think the exchange rate of the RENMINBI is an important contributor to the trade imbalance between China and the U.S. If there is any important contributor to the trade imbalance, I think it is the abundant supply of competitive labor in China's market.

  Q: China and the United States are working closely together to try to assure that the Korean peninsula remains free of nuclear weapons. Do you believe that North Korea currently possesses nuclear weapons?

  A: I am unable to give you an answer to that question because I truly don抰 know. But I can clearly tell you our attitude. We hope the Korean peninsula will be free of nuclear weapons, and we hope that peace and stability will be maintained on the Korean peninsula.

  Q: President Bush has assured the North Koreans that the United States does not intend to attack. Are there other specific steps that you believe the United States should be taking to try to bring a resolution, to create an agreement with North Korea?

  A: You must have also noticed that there has been some progress in the process of dialogue on the nuclear issue. The DPRK has stated that it does not seek to possess nuclear weapons and that denuclearization is its ultimate goal. And recently, it has also said that under the prerequisite that its security concerns are met and the United States abandons its hostile policy toward the DPRK, the DPRK is prepared to give up its substantive plan to develop a nuclear program. The Bush administration has repeatedly said that the United States has no intention to invade or change the regime of the DPRK, and that it wants to resolve the nuclear issue through diplomatic means, through peaceful negotiations. So in my view, the positions of two sides are now closer than before.

  I think the best way is to continue with the Beijing six-party talks so that all parties concerned can sit together to have discussions on the basis of mutual respect, equality and mutual trust, and through such consultations they can, in the end, work out a solution that is acceptable to all parties concerned and that is helpful for the peaceful resolution of the nuclear issue.

  Q: Another subject in discussions between the United States and China on occasion is Tibet. The Dalai Lama has declared that he is not seeking independence for Tibet. And I believe former President Jiang Zemin had said on one occasion that he was willing to meet with the Dalai Lama to discuss the situation. Do you foresee face-to-face meetings with the Dalai Lama and representatives of China?

  A: Regrettably, the Dalai Lama has not genuinely given up his position of Tibet independence and has not given up the separatist activities aimed at splitting the motherland. He also has not recognized that Taiwan is an inalienable part of Chinese territory.

  We have taken note of the recent remarks by the Dalai Lama but we still need to watch very carefully what he really does. So long as he genuinely abandons his position on seeking Tibetan independence and publicly recognizes that Tibet and Taiwan are inalienable parts of Chinese territory, then contacts between him and the central government can resume and we can resume the discussions with him. The door to communication between the central government and the Dalai Lama is wide open.

  Q: China's economic performance has been very rapid in recent years, creating a very strong Chinese economy, and great economic growth in a short period of time. Do you also believe political reform should be accelerated to keep pace with economic reform?

  A: China embarked on the road to reform and opening up in 1978. Our reform is a comprehensive one which includes both economic and political restructuring. Precisely as Mr. Deng Xiaoping pointed out, without political reform, economic reform will not be successful. In essence political restructuring in China aims at integrating the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party, the people's role as masters of their own affairs and rule of law in the conduct of public affairs.

  At present, it is particularly important to do a good job on the following. First of all, we should develop democracy to safeguard people's democratic rights and to respect and protect their human rights. Secondly, we should improve on the legal system through better legislation, better administration according to law, and greater judicial reform. Thirdly, we should run the country according to law, making our socialist democracy more institutionalized, standardized and proceduralized, and in this way we can make sure that it will not change because of changes in the leadership and changes in the views and focus of attention of leaders. Fourth, we must strengthen supervision, and we should make sure that the government is placed under the supervision of the people. We have to develop democracy and strengthen supervision. Only in this way can we make sure the government will not relent in its efforts, and this would help avoid a situation whereby the government would be a failure.

  China is a big country with 1.3 billion people. So to press ahead with political reform, it has to be done in an orderly fashion and in a well-organized manner. Now there exist many misunderstandings. I know this is your first time in China. I don抰 know what you have seen. For instance, with regard to freedom of religious belief, freedom of religious belief is actually written into China's constitution. China currently has over 100 million religious followers. China has over 100,000 religious sites. Let me put in another way. Since the beginning of reform and opening up, one religious site has been either newly built or restored every three days. You may just take a walk around the Zhongnanhai compound, and you can see many, many religious sites. For instance, to the south of Zhongnanhai, there's the Chongwenmen Protestant church. To the east of Zhongnanhai, there's the Wangfujing Catholic church. Nearest to Zhongnanhai is the famous Xiciku church. To the north of Zhongnanhai, there's the Yonghe Buddhist monastery. To the west of Zhongnanhai is the Baiyun Taoist temple. You may visit these religious sites. I抦 sure when you are there, you will see not just people practicing their religious faith. At the same time, these religious believers are also law-abiding citizens. Also, to the southwest of Zhongnanhai, there's Islam, the large Niujie mosque.

  Over the past 5,000 years of Chinese history, China has been very tolerant toward the development of religion. Among the five major religions in China, only Taoism is an indigenous religious belief. The other four actually came from overseas. For instance, Buddhism came to China from India, Catholicism and Protestantism from the West, and Islam from the Middle East or West Asia.

  Q: What steps do you anticipate will be next taken in political reforms? For example, might direct elections of local governments be extended upward to the township level?

  A: You must know quite a lot about Chinese elections. At the moment, we have introduced the practice of self-administration and direct elections in 680,000 villages. This is a great innovation, and it is also very good practice for Chinese farmers. We also introduced suffrage for the election of people's deputies at the level of townships, counties and urban cities without districts. Indirect elections are held for the leadership of the provinces, autonomous regions, municipalities with districts, as well as the central authorities. Why? This is because China is such a huge country. It has a big population. It is very underdeveloped, and economic development is uneven between regions. So conditions are not ripe for direct elections at the higher levels. The first hindrance in my view is the inadequate education level of the population.

  Q: Premier Wen, you mentioned uneven development during this period of great economic growth. Are you concerned about a gap growing in economic conditions between the more well off parts of China and the poorer parts of China, such as in the west?

  A: I do have such concerns. Not too long ago, the Commerce Secretary, Mr. Evans, visited China, and he started his visit going to China's northwest. He came to see me and he was sitting right here where you are sitting. He took with him two photographs that were taken when he visited the countryside in China's northwest. From his visit, he learned that the countryside in China is still very backward. So I told him with this knowledge, the problems that he was about to discuss with me could be solved very easily.

  I抳e personally been to 1,800 counties throughout the country. So I抦 in a position to say I抳e seen the worst poverty in China. So I know very well how uneven our development has been. Yes, it is true that in the coastal areas in the East, skyscrapers overwhelm you. However, in large areas of the countryside, people are still living in shabby houses with thatch roofs and still use oxen to till the land. Thirty million people are still below the poverty line.

  So one important inspirational lesson we have learned from the struggle against the SARS epidemic is that we have to emphasize coordinated development. And this is what the new Chinese leadership has learned from the struggle against SARS.

  Uneven development between the urban and rural areas, and imbalance between economic development and social progress —— this situation can be described with an analogy. It's like a human being who has one long leg and one short leg. If one leg is longer than the other, this person is bound to stumble and fall. And a country with one leg longer than the other will also stumble and fall.

  We have worked out a strategy for the eastern part of the country to encourage them to continue with the big momentum of their development. And where conditions permit, they should take the lead in achieving modernization. This is because through their development, a lot of financial resources will be made available to support the development of China's center and west. At the same time, we抮e also implementing a strategy to develop China's western region. And very recently, we decided to implement a strategy to revitalize the old industrial bases in China's northeast. So with good interaction between the east and west, we hope to bring along development in the central region of the country. With all these efforts, we hope gradually we can bring about more coordinated development between the two different regions. But I want to remind you that this could be a very time-consuming process.

  Q: Is this also the reason why you are changing the constitution to protect private property rights and giving farmers the right to buy and sell land use rights?

  A: We have decided on an important policy and that is public ownership will be the mainstay and multiple forms of ownership will develop side by side. To sum up, we can use two unswervingly to describe this. We will unswervingly uphold the public ownership system and develop the public sector, and we will unswervingly encourage, support and guide the development of the non-public sector.

  This basic economic system has been written into our constitution, and in the recently held third plenary session of the 16th Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party, the concept of property rights was introduced. It was made very clear at the session that we would formulate legislation protecting private property. Such a move was entirely based on China's actual conditions in the spirit of seeking truth from facts, because this will help accelerate China's economic development. It will also help ease the pressure from employment. It will also give greater scope to the creativity and enterprising spirit of the Chinese population and will in the end help us achieve the goal of common prosperity. At the moment, privately run enterprises employ a total of 80 million workers and they contribute to 23 percent of our GDP. In the countryside, we have the household contract management system. It has long since been stipulated that land operated by farmers can be transferred in a lawful and compensatory manner.

  Q: Earlier you mentioned the financial sector. Do important changes need to be made there to provide more financing for the private sector and business? And does the government need to take steps to deal with the loan problem at some of the big banks?

  A: Financial reform is the most difficult and the most crucial part of our overall economic reforms. As is known to all, the financial sector in China has been plagued by many problems. The biggest problem is the fairly high proportion of nonperforming loans from banks. There exists significant risk. The problem is caused by defects in the system. So we have to accelerate the reform of the banking system. Our aim is to put in place a modern banking system whereby the commercial banks will be commercial banks in a true sense. That means they will be responsible for their own operation decisions and they will be held responsible for their profits and losses. On our part, we will help create conditions to introduce corporate governance to the banks through the share-holding system. Those that meet the conditions can go public or be listed.

  You also touched upon an important point, that is to ensure there will be more financing in support of small and medium sized enterprises and also the privately run enterprises. I have to admit that not enough has been done in this field, even though the small and medium-sized enterprises play a very important role in creating job opportunities and in providing employment. So while we step up regulation and improve our capability to avoid financial risks, we should make sure that the banks would provide more financing and support of these small and medium-sized enterprises.

  Q: If I may ask one question about the events of 1989 in Tiananmen. You went to visit the students there during that time. Have you concluded were they counterrevolutionaries or were they patriots?

  A: In the last century, at the turn of the 1980s and 1990s, drastic changes took place in the Soviet Union and countries of Eastern Europe. In China, a political disturbance occurred. At that time, the party and government of China adopted resolute measures in a timely fashion to safeguard social stability and became more determined to press ahead with China's reform and opening up. Our development over the past years has proven that stability is of vital importance for China. As premier of this country, I think the most important issue for me is to ensure stability and development. This is because China has 1.3 billion people.

  Q: You抳e talked about stability being an important concern of yours here. President Bush has in two recent major speeches, one in Washington and yesterday in London, has talked about the importance of freedom as a core American value, particularly in reference to the attacks by terrorists on American and British and other targets. Do you see the core values of America and China being different or similar, and how does that affect the future development of Chinese-American relations?

  A: Let me ask you a question. In the past 25 years of reform and opening up, enormous changes have taken places in China's economic landscape. Have people from the outside ever seen the changes taking place in China's democracy and freedom? At the moment, people can choose what kind of jobs they want to have, they can choose what kind of information they seek, they can choose where to visit. Twenty-five years ago, for a Chinese person to visit a foreign country or even to visit Hong Kong, part of our own country, it was very difficult or almost impossible. At the moment, every year, tens of millions of Chinese travelers visit places across the world. And in addition, as I said earlier, we now have freedom of religious belief.

  Let me share with you how I feel about my duties. As premier of China, my responsibility is heavy, the job is demanding, and there is endless work to do. 1.3 billion is a very big number. So if we use multiplication, any small problem multiplied by 1.3 billion will end up being a very big problem. For a very big aggregate divided by 1.3 billion, it will come to a very tiny figure. This is something that is quite difficult for foreign visitors to understand and appreciate.

  I remember that in the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson wrote that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. He put life before anything else. So when we say that for the Chinese people's human rights, the right to life and development is most important, sometimes our friends in the Western countries find this difficult to understand. I think they only need to refer to the Declaration of Independence written by Thomas Jefferson. In 1776, in that Declaration of Independence, he already put the right to life before every other right. The U.S. has also witnessed the process of development of democracy if you look at the history, from the Declaration of Independence in the 18th century, the Civil War in 19th century, and to the Martin Luther King incident in the 20th century.

  I was being very straightforward. If I can speak very honestly and in a straightforward manner, I would say the understanding of China by some Americans is not as good as the Chinese people's understanding of the United States.

  Q: Speaking of that, you seem to have a very good understanding of the United States. Have you visited the United States before?

  A: I have not made an official visit to the United States, but I抳e been to the United States during a stopover on my way to South American countries. I spent a few days in New York and in Los Angeles.

  Q: So you know a lot from what you've been reading I imagine about the United States. Is there anything that made a particular impression on you in your reading about the United States?

  A: My biggest hobby actually is reading. I don't know how to live without books. They're my best companion. Let me share with you a story. Once I had a meeting with the president of the Republic of Korea, Mr. Roh Moo-hyun, and he told me that in his inauguration speech, he quoted President Abraham Lincoln from one of his speeches in 1861. So after the meeting, I went back home and looked for the book about Abraham Lincoln on my bookshelf, and I found that paragraph. In the very same paragraph, I had already used red pencil to underline these lines.

  He wrote, “The mystic cords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave, to every living heart and hearthstone, all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when touched again, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.”

  So my understanding is that Lincoln's approach to the Civil War had an impact, an influence on President Roh Moo-hyun on how he's going to address the problems between North and South Korea. President Roh wants to see reconciliation between the two.

  I want to make one last remark. The United States is the most developed country in the world. China is the most populous developing country in the world. To develop friendship and cooperation between these two countries will not only bring benefits to our two peoples but will also be conducive to peace and stability in Asia and the world at large. In 1972, farsighted leaders on the two sides opened the door for exchanges between us, and put an end to 23 years of estrangement and no contact. That started the peaceful coexistence between us. Despite the many ups and downs we have experienced, our relationship has moved forward. So what have we learned from the past years of the history of our relationship? I think at least we can draw three conclusions. First, cooperation will bring benefits to both nations, whereas confrontation will hurt both sides. Second, there exists a good basis of cooperation and common interests between China and the United States. Third, friendship and cooperation between China and the U.S. is not only conducive to peace and stability in the Asia Pacific region, it is also conducive to peace and stability throughout the world.

  英文转自《华盛顿邮报》


  温家宝总理:

  听说你是第一次到中国来,我对你和你的同事们表示热烈欢迎。中国有一句古诗:“结交一言重,相期千里至。”再过十几天,我就要访问你们伟大的国家。在这里,我首先通过贵报,对伟大的美国人民表示亲切的问候和良好的祝愿。

  记得在“九·一一”事件发生后的几天,我会见到中国出席国际金融会议的外国代表,其中有一个美国的女专家,我看到她的神情表现出哀伤孤寂,我向她伸出手,表示慰问,同时也请她转达对美国人民的问候。

  我们两个伟大的国家,交往的历史已经有二百年了,跨越了三个世纪。两国人民友谊和合作的动人事迹还历历在目。十九世纪六十年代,中国数以万计的华工参加了美国横贯东西部大铁路的修建工作。他们不顾严寒、饥饿和待遇菲薄的恶劣条件,当别的建筑队伍都撤下来的时候,只有中国这支队伍坚持到底。最后一根枕木是由四位华工铺上的。无数人为这个工程献出了生命。一九九一年伊利诺伊州曾经专门派人到上海用三千个道钉做了个纪念碑。他们说,中国筑路工人的最大贡献就是沟通了美国东西部的大通道,并由此推动了美国的统一,这是一个重要的因素。上个世纪,一九四二年五月到一九四五年的九月,美国派了年轻的飞行员组成“飞虎队”,飞越著名的“驼峰”航线,支持中国的反法西斯战争。那是世界上著名的艰难航线,美国几年间大约损失了五百多架飞机,美中两国飞行员牺牲了一千五百多人。因为山谷里的飞机碎片在阳光下闪闪发光,人们称之为“铝谷”。它记载了中美合作的历史。我讲这段历史,就是希望我们之间这次采访活动从互相尊重、友好的气氛中开始。你可以问你事先提出的问题,也可以提你希望了解的其它问题。

  唐尼总编(以下简称唐):目前需要中美合作处理的一个问题就是台湾问题,中方需要美方做什么?

  温:台湾当局领导人最近的一系列言行,特别是“公投”和“制宪”的行径,充分暴露了他们顽固坚持分裂国家的立场,而且变本加厉地进行“台独”的活动。你问我这个问题,我也在问,台湾当局意欲何为?他们究竟想把台湾引向何处?他们还尊重不尊重台湾人民要和平、要稳定、要发展的意愿?他们是真的希望还是要蓄意破坏台海局势的和平与稳定?这个问题,大陆同胞关心,台湾同胞关心,美国和国际社会也关心。我们对台湾的政策是明确的,这就是“和平统一,一国两制”。我们不放弃和平解决台湾问题的努力,因为这符合包括台湾同胞在内的全中国人民的根本利益,但是对任何分裂祖国的挑衅行动,我们不会坐视不管。

  中国的主权和领土完整是不可分割的。中国政府坚持一个中国的立场是坚定不移的,是不容挑战的。我希望美国政府能够注意到台湾当局领导人破坏国家统一的严重性和危险性,不要向他们发出错误信号,应该采取有助于台海局势和平与稳定的实际行动。

  唐:你说希望美国采取实际行动,具体是指哪方面行动?

  温:中美关系中的重要问题是台湾问题。在台湾问题上,美国应该明确坚持中美三个联合公报,反对“台独”,明确反对台湾当局领导人以“公投”、“制宪”等手段推行台湾“独立”的分裂活动,并遵守“八一七”公报的原则,停止售台武器。这样做,从根本上有利于台海局势的和平与稳定,也有利于我们和平统一祖国的进程,从根本上有利于世界的和平与稳定。

  唐:如果台湾当局不顾中美所表达的反对意见,一意孤行,在目前的道路上继续往下走,中国会采取什么行动?

  温:这是最关键的问题。台湾是中国神圣的领土,是中国不可分割的一部分。中国任何一届政府都不会放弃和平统一祖国的立场。我们完全理解台湾人民的民主诉求,也完全理解台湾人民希望有一个和平的环境。但是当台湾当局的领导人试图要把祖国的领土分裂出去的时候,任何一个中国人都不会答应。中国人民会不惜一切代价,维护祖国的统一。我想你大概熟悉林肯总统的一句话,他在演说中曾经说过,一个“自相分裂的家庭是站立不住的”。他还说过,美国由各州组成的“联邦乃是永久性的”。我们不希望事态发展到这一步,因此我们不放弃和平的努力。

  唐:中国是美国重要的贸易伙伴,然而美国政府最近宣布,要对中国某些纺织品的出口设限。你认为中国有必要采取报复措施吗?

  温:中美经贸关系中产生的问题应该得到妥善的处理,因为发展中美经贸关系,符合两国人民的根本利益。在1972年,就是30年前,中美贸易几乎没有统计数字。基辛格访问中国的时候,只允许美国人带100美元到中国来买东西。中美贸易有确切统计数字始于1979年,不到25亿美元。经过25年,中美贸易额达到了1000亿美元,增长了40倍。应该说,这对于两国人民都是有利的。我知道,美方关心美中贸易逆差问题。我想说明几句,第一,美中贸易逆差是结构性和转移性的。当美中贸易逆差扩大的时候,中国对亚洲许多国家的逆差也在扩大。中国今年1至10月出口增长32%,但进口增长40%。第二,中国出口的产品, 65%是中外合资或者是外国独资企业生产的。一半以上是来料加工。出口产品中的许多丰厚利润,都被外商拿走了。这里就包含了美国设在中国的企业,比如像摩托罗拉、沃尔玛。第三,中国出口到美国的商品是美国民众需要的,而且物美价廉,这些商品出口到美国有利于稳定美国的物价,也有利于满足美国人民生活的日常需要。第四,中国不追求长期过大的贸易顺差,我们贸易政策的基本原则是进出基本平衡。我们愿意开放市场,从美国以及其他国家多进口产品,特别是高科技产品。前不久,中国有几个采购团到美国,签订了几十亿美元的合同,表明了中国的诚意。但是我们也希望,美国也应该给予中国市场经济国家的地位,对中国不要加以限制,也应该开放市场。有一个例子大概你知道,几年前中国向劳拉卫星公司定购一颗卫星,并支付了1.3亿美元定金。但是美国有关方面不同意,因此这个合同至今没有兑现,1.3亿美元也没有退还。实际上,这种限制完全影响不了中国的发展和进步。正是在这几年,中国不断发射卫星,甚至把飞船送上了天。一些数控机床、计算机,中国自己都能够研制,而且某些方面并不落后,但是美国方面还把它们列入限制对华出口产品。

  唐:还是关于纺织品问题。尽管中国做了许多,但美国还是采取了这样的行动,这是否使你感到意外,中国还会采取什么样的措施?

  温:不仅使我感到意外,也使我感到震惊,使中国人民感到意外和震惊。为了价值仅4亿-5亿美元的纺织品,在未同中国事先商谈的情况下,单方面公布这样的限制措施,应该说十分伤害中国人民的感情。不知道你是不是注意到了国际的反应和专家的反应,这种决策甚至影响到美国的市场。我又要用中国的一句话,“不畏浮云遮望眼,只缘身在最高层。”我们应该用登泰山一览众山小的战略眼光来看待我们的经贸合作和其他方面的合作关系。我们之间应该建立经常性的协调和合作机制,解决经贸关系中出现的问题。这是我这次访美要提的建议。这种机制能够保证我们通过平等协商来处理两国的争端,而不要动辄制裁和限制。那样不仅于事无补,而且会损害两国的利益。我希望纺织品问题能够通过双方协商妥善加以解决。

  唐:有人说,调整中国人民币的汇率政策有助于改进中美贸易状况,你同意这种观点吗?

  温:人民币汇率改革始于1994年。我们当时确定的机制是以市场供求为基础,单一的、有管理的浮动汇率。有人说,人民币汇率固定不变,这不是事实。浮动的幅度小,这是事实。1994年到现在,人民币实际对美元升值了18.5%,对欧元升值39.4%。1997年亚洲发生金融风暴后,我们顶住了要求人民币贬值的压力。从那个时候起,人民币浮动幅度小了。我认为一个国家汇率制度应该从这个国家的国情出发,依据它的经济和金融发展状况来决定。毋庸讳言,我们金融改革的任务还十分艰巨,我们在1996年才实行经常项目下的人民币可兑换,但是实行资本项目下的人民币完全可兑换,还需要长时间的艰苦努力。我可以明确向你表示,我们一定要加快金融改革,而且在加快金融改革的进程中探索人民币面向市场浮动的合理的汇率形成机制。我不认为人民币汇率是影响中美贸易不平衡的重要因素,中国产品出口增加,最重要的是中国拥有丰富而又有竞争力的劳动力。

  唐:在朝核问题上,中美之间正在密切合作,确保朝鲜半岛无核化。你认为朝鲜目前有没有核武器?

  温:我确实回答不了你的问题,我真的不知道。但是我可以明确告诉你我们的态度,我们希望朝鲜半岛没有核武器,而且希望朝鲜半岛和平与稳定。

  唐:布什总统已经表明美国无意进攻朝鲜,为使美朝达成协议,美国方面还需要采取哪些具体步骤?

  温:目前朝鲜半岛和谈进程有所进展。朝方表示,拥核不是目的,而无核是最终目标。最近朝方又提出,在他们的安全关切得到保证,也就是说,在美国消除对朝鲜敌视政策的前提下,他们可以放弃核武器发展计划。布什政府也反复强调无意侵犯朝鲜,无意改变朝鲜现行制度,希望通过和平谈判解决朝鲜半岛核问题。应该说,双方的立场比过去更加接近了。我希望最好还是继续北京六方会谈,各方通过相互尊重、平等互信、互相磋商,找到一个为各方所接受的和平解决朝鲜核问题的方案。

  唐:达赖喇嘛表示无意寻求西藏独立,中国政府代表是否会与达赖及其代表见面谈判?

  温:遗憾的是,达赖喇嘛并没有真正放弃“藏独”立场,没有停止分裂祖国的活动,也没有承认台湾是中国领土不可分割的一部分。我们注意到他近期的一些言论,但还要听其言,观其行。只要达赖喇嘛真正放弃“藏独”的主张,承认西藏是中国领土不可分割的一部分,台湾是中国领土不可分割的一部分,我们就可以恢复同他的接触和商谈。中央政府同达赖喇嘛接触的大门是敞开的。

  唐:中国的经济改革发展迅速,使得中国在短期内取得高速增长。中国的政治改革是否需要跟上经济改革的步伐?

  温:从1978年开始的中国改革是全面的改革,不仅包括经济体制改革,而且包括政治体制改革。正如邓小平先生所说,没有政治体制改革作保证,经济体制改革不可能成功。我们进行的政治体制改革,从本质上说,是要把加强党的领导、依法治国和人民当家作主统一起来。当前最重要的是做好这样几件事:第一、发展民主,保障人民的民主权利和人权。第二、完善法制,加强立法,依法行政,推进司法改革。第三、依法治国,使我们的社会主义民主政治法制化、规范化和程序化。使这种制度不因领导人的改变而改变,不因领导人的看法、注意力的改变而改变。第四、加强监督,特别是人民对政府的监督。只有发扬民主,加强监督,政府才不敢懈怠,才不会人亡政息。我们是有13亿人的大国,推进政治体制改革必须有领导、有步骤地进行。现在有许多误解,比如宗教信仰问题。中国的宪法明确规定公民有宗教信仰自由,现在中国信教人数超过1亿人,宗教活动场所有10万多个。改革开放以来,大约每3天就新建或重建一处宗教活动场所。在中南海不远的地方,就有宗教活动场所,东有王府井的天主教堂,南有牛街的伊斯兰清真寺,北有佛教的雍和宫,西有道教的白云观。在中南海最近的地方,有历史较长的西什库教堂。你可以到这些地方看看,有很多宗教信徒在那里从事宗教活动。中国5000年的历史在宗教发展方面有很大的包容性。中国5大宗教中只有道教是本土产生的,其他4种宗教都是外面传来的,佛教是从印度传来的,基督教和天主教是从西方传来的,伊斯兰教是从中东、西亚传来的。

  唐:今后中国在政治改革方面还会有什么步骤?比如说现在的直接选举,是否会从基层推进到乡镇?

  温:目前,我们在68万个村一级实行村民自治和直接选举。这是一个很大的创举,也是对农民的很大锻炼。我们在县、乡和不设区的市实行的是普选人民代表。在省和设区的市以至中央,实行间接选举。为什么这样做?因为中国很大,人口很多,经济不发达,发展又不平衡,在现阶段不可能在高层开展直接选举,条件还不成熟,首先文化素质就不够。

  唐:中国现在经济增长势头很猛,比较富裕的地区和比较贫困的地区的差距会不会进一步扩大?

  温:我有这样的担心。前不久,美国商务部长埃文斯访华,先去了中国的西北。他给我带来了两张中国西部农村的照片。他了解到,中国的西北农村还很落后。我对他讲,你知道这一点,今天我们谈论的问题都可以解决了。我本人到过全国 1800多个县,可以说中国最穷困的地方我都到过。我深知中国的发展是不平衡的。你可以看到,东部地区、一些大城市,有很多高楼大厦。而在一些农村,农民还住在茅草房里,还在用牛耕种。中国还有 3000万人没有解决温饱问题。我们新一届领导通过抗击非典型肺炎这场疾病,得到一个重要的启示,就是要注意协调发展。城乡发展不平衡,经济和社会发展不平衡,就如同一个人一条腿长一条腿短一样,一定会跌跤的。一个国家一条腿长一条腿短,也会跌跤的。但是我们必须在发展中解决这些问题,这就是说东部地区继续加快发展,有条件的地方率先基本实现现代化,可以提供更多的财力来支援中部和西部地区。与此同时,我们实施西部大开发战略。最近,我们又提出振兴东北等老工业基地战略。这样实行东西互动,带动中部,使中国能够逐步走向协调发展。但是,请记住,这是一个很长的过程。

  唐:是不是出于同样考虑,你们决定修改宪法,保护私有财产,而且允许农民转让土地使用权?

  温:我们确定了一条重要方针,就是坚持以公有制为主体、多种所有制经济共同发展。我们把它概括为两个毫不动摇,就是毫不动摇地发展公有制经济,毫不动摇地发展个体私营等非公有制经济,并将此作为基本经济制度载入了宪法。最近中国共产党十六届三中全会提出了产权制度的概念,明确要求要制定保护私有财产的法律、法规。这样做完全是从中国实际出发,是实事求是的,有利于中国经济的发展,也有利于缓解就业的压力,有利于增强社会公众的创业和创新动力,有利于共同富裕。中国目前个体私营经济的从业人员达到 8000万。个体私营经济在国民生产总值中的比重已达到 23%。在农村我们实行的是家庭承包经营制度,允许农民经营的土地依法有偿转让,这是早已规定了的。

  唐:金融体制方面是否需要做出调整,以使私营企业得到更多的资金支持?如何解决大银行的不良贷款?

  温:金融体制改革是我们经济体制改革的重头戏。中国金融体系存在许多问题,最主要的就是银行不良贷款比例较高,存在着很大的金融隐患。主要原因在于体制,必须加快对银行体制的改革。我们的目标是建立现代银行制度,使银行能够成为自主经营、自负盈亏、真正的商业银行。要实行银行公司治理结构的改造,实行股份制,具备条件的,允许上市。你提到一个很重要的问题,就是要加强金融机构对中小企业、特别是民营企业的支持。应该说,在这方面做的是不够的。中小企业特别是民营企业对于吸纳劳动力、解决就业问题可以发挥重要作用。我们要在加强监管、防范风险的同时加大银行对他们的扶持力度。

  唐:1989年的时候你去了天安门广场,见到了学生们,他们是反革命分子,还是爱国者?

  温:上个世纪八十年代末九十年代初,苏联、东欧发生剧变,在中国也发生了一场政治风波。当时,中国党和政府及时果断地采取措施,维护了社会的稳定,并且下定决心继续推进改革开放。10多年来,中国发展的历史证明,稳定在中国是至关重要的。作为中国的总理,我最关心的是中国的稳定与发展问题,因为中国有13 亿人口。

  唐:你刚才讲到稳定对中国是至关重要的。而布什总统在他最近两次重要演讲中,都谈到自由的重要性,认为自由是美国的核心价值观。你认为美中两国的价值观是不同,还是相似?对于未来中美关系的发展有什么影响?

  温:我想反问一句,在中国改革开放 25年、经济发生巨大变化的同时,难道你们没有看到中国人民民主和自由发生的变化?比如择业自由,获取信息的自由,旅游的自由。25年以前,中国人到外国去,包括到我们自己的香港去,都是不可能的。现在每年有上千万人次到世界各地去。还有我刚才讲的宗教信仰自由问题。我想对先生讲一句我的感受,作为中国的总理,我感觉担子很重,工作难度很大,工作也做不完。13亿,是一个很大的数字,如果你用乘法来算,一个很小的问题,乘以 13亿,都会变成一个大问题。如果你用除法的话,一个很大的总量,除以 13亿,都会变成一个小的数目。这是许多外国人不容易理解的。

  我记得杰斐逊起草的《独立宣言》有这样一段话:人生而平等。由于人生而平等,他们都享有固有的不可剥夺的权利,其中有维护生命和自由的权利以及追求幸福的权利。我刚才讲到,在中国,讲人权首先是生存权和发展权。有些西方朋友感到不可理解。其实,读读杰斐逊 1776年起草的《独立宣言》,他也是把生存权摆在了第一位。难道从 18世纪的《独立宣言》,到 19世纪的南北战争,到 20世纪的马丁·路德·金事件,不也反映了美国民主和自由发展的过程吗?恕我直言,美国有一些人对中国的了解不如我们对美国了解的多。

  唐:从你的谈话中,可以看出你对美国非常了解,你访问过美国吗?

  温:应该说我去过美国,但我没有访问过。我是访问南美的时候,路经美国,在纽约、洛杉矶都住过几天。

  唐:你一定读了很多有关美国的书籍,给你留下深刻印象的是什么?

  温:我最大的爱好就是读书。读书伴随着我的整个生活。谈到读美国的书,我可以跟你讲一个故事,就是我见韩国总统卢武铉时,他说他的就职演说引用了林肯 1861年的一段演说。我回去翻我书架上有关林肯的书,发现在同样的一段话下,我用铅笔画满了红线。林肯说,记忆的神秘琴弦,从每一个战场和每一个爱国者的坟墓,延伸到这些广阔国土上的每一颗跳动着的心和每一个家庭,它一定会被触动,它一旦被我们天性中善良的性灵所触动,必将奏出联邦的大合唱。我想林肯处理南北战争的态度影响了卢武铉,他希望朝鲜半岛南北和解。

  唐:非常感谢你抽出这么多的时间接受我们的采访,非常感谢!

  温:最后我还想说几句话。去年江泽民主席访问贵国,今年胡锦涛主席两次会晤布什总统,都明确表达了中方的态度,这就是继续改善和发展同美国的关系。美国是世界上最发达的国家。中国是世界上人口最多的发展中国家。发展中美两国的友好合作,不仅会造福两国人民,而且有利于亚洲和世界的和平与稳定。1972年,两国有远见的领导人打开了中美关系的大门,结束了我们 23年的相互隔阂和不交往的历史,开始了两国和平相处的历史。尽管风风雨雨,跌宕起伏,但是两国关系还是前进的。那么这 50多年的历史告诉我们什么?起码告诉我们三点,第一,和则两利,斗则俱伤。第二,中美两国有着合作的基础和共同的利益。第三,中美友好合作不仅有利于亚太地区,而且有利于世界的和平与稳定。

 《人民日报海外版》 (2003年11月24日 第一版)

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